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This is a video from a couple of years ago, one I come back to from time to time because there’s so much to process here. It’s one of the first that Jordan Peterson posted after coming back from the illness that nearly killed him in 2020. He’s talking to Jonathan Pageau, who is an Orthodox Christian and icon carver, someone who speaks on topics with some overlap to things Peterson does, particularly symbolism, albeit from a much more religious angle. Pageau heard Peterson speak on Canadian radio back in 2015, before Peterson was famous, reached out to Peterson, and from that, became friends and collaborators.

I’m sure Peterson chose Pageau to speak with here because, in some sense, it’s an easy interview – the friendship and, dare I say, love, between the two is palpable. Pageau is not there to outwit or outsmart Peterson and he’s not going to take advantage of Peterson’s poor health to try to get Peterson to say something stupid or corner him into any “gotcha” moments.

One of the remarkable things about the video is that after a few minutes, it feels less like a Youtube podcast and more like two friends having a deep conversation. Peterson is obviously in a bad place; in the video, not only does about how much pain he’s in and how much he’s struggling with daily living, but from the beginning, there’s something about his look that reminded me of Freddy Mercury as he was losing his battle to AIDS. It’s not just the look of someone who is merely very sick; it’s the look of someone who is in a precarious battle to stay alive. It’s nothing new to mention that it’s common amongst people who are battling between life and death that the “religious questions” often come to the fore, however, Peterson’s state and the rawness to his questions and answers make this interview even more personal.

The “main topic” is Christian criticism Peterson has received which appeared in a book that had been recently published, but the conversation wanders to a bunch of topics, many of a very religious nature. Peterson has been fairly public about wrestling with the idea of faith; his upcoming book is even titled, “We Who Wrestle with God”. However, he’s far from being an atheist, or even an agnostic. While the whole video is worth watching, Peterson’s indictment against many so-called Christians cuts straight to the heart. (I started the video here with the comment of Pageau’s that elicited the comment.)

There’s a bit of sidetracking here, and some mention of the Catholic Church, but this is what Peterson lays out as being a huge stumbling block to having faith for himself:

“There’s no limit to what would happen if you acted like God existed. You know what I mean, because I believe that acting that out fully … maybe it’s not reasonable to say to believers that you aren’t sufficiently transformed for me to believe that you believe in God, or that you believe the story you’re telling… the way you live isn’t sufficient testament to the Truth … Really? You believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and yet you act that way, and I’m supposed to buy your belief? … Christians don’t manifest the transformation of attitude that enables the outside observer to conclude that they believe.”

The thing is, Peterson is absolutely right. Even now, as Christianity is so much in decline in the west, there are still a lot of people who call themselves Christians for reasons that have very little to do with Christ. It’s interesting, too, that Peterson talks about a necessary transformation of one’s life, because that’s going to link in to the idea of theosis later in the conversation.

Pageau isn’t shocked or offended by Peterson, in his response, he gently brings up the example of the saints. I believe that he means those saints both living and dead, who have led lives that are focused on God to the fullest of their ability, and that many of them end up with visible spiritual gifts; at this moment, he talks about “the gift of tears”, but later talks about people who glow because they love God so much that His love shines through them to the people they encounter.

The conversation gets away from this topic specifically for awhile, but then Peterson picks it up again nearly fifty minutes later, and links theosis – a process in which one transforms to become more like and joined with God – with courage and calling, noting that he’s terrified that most people lack the courage necessary to “bring about that union with God”.

Peterson’s following questions to Pageau make it clear that he believes that Jesus was probably the only one ever to achieve theosis; Pageau corrects him in saying that Jesus was the only perfect manifestation of theosis, but that we absolutely believe that other saints have reached theosis, and that all of us are called to that, to become one with God. (My small comment here – not being a religious expert, mind you – is that although Christ embodies perfect theosis, He didn’t necessarily have to achieve theosis.)

The conversation continues on a bit, and then Pageau brings it back to theosis and the saints:

_{(This isn’t too far past the last video clip, but far enough that it might not get played above.)}

I think the point here clearly hits at Peterson’s “indictment” above, possibly even better than his original answer, where he was more “on the spot” to give a good response. Yes, it is certainly true that most of us who call ourselves Christians don’t trust God enough to follow Him in our actual calling. To those who do, the limitations of nature itself hardly seem to apply. However, this “calling” is not reserved for the special few, but to each one of us, in our own ways. Those who successfully do this are the saints among us, both living and in the next world. Their lives serve as both an example and a comfort for those of us who aspire along the Christian path.

One of the things that I find most unusual about my path into the Orthodox Church was that it was influenced, in no small part, by St. Alexander (Schmorell) of Munich. I felt his presence around me in very strange ways over and over again. For example, after moving to Germany in 2002, I found the parish in Munich which I would be baptized, and which I would attend for the next four years. Mind you, this wasn’t his home parish, and at that point in time, he hadn’t been glorified as a saint, but was merely a fairly obscure figure in German history. However, that very first week, an edition of the church newsletter was distributed. It was in Russian, and beyond my comprehension for a “quick read”, but there was a picture of Alexander there in a feature for the newsletter, and I felt almost an immediate sense of “you’re exactly where you’re supposed to be”, but more than that, the beginnings of the sense of “I am with you.” Coming from a Protestant background, that was a very, very strange thing to experience, but I can’t adequately express how much it was a help and blessing.

The “Orthobros” may bash me for this, but I don’t think these saints are strictly limited to those recognized in the Orthodox church. (I don’t even think the Orthodox Church has recognized most of its own saints! This isn’t necessarily a deficiency in the Orthodox Church or any other church, it’s just the way the process is!) However, in so many ways, secular “culture” does its best to marginalize the saints. When they talk about sin, it’s quickly justified with variations of, “Everybody’s doing it”, “Nobody’s perfect” (“Only God is perfect”), or “Those who say they didn’t are lying”. In popular culture, priests are held up as figures of derision, disdain, and weakness, and monastics don’t even exist. No wonder Peterson doesn’t think that anyone lives up to the challenge of being a serious Christian! How discouraging that must be for someone who seems to honestly be seeking Truth!

Most of us aren’t in places that would do anything policy or culture. Even internet “influencers” usually have fairly limited reach. However, each of us has a certain sphere of people we come in contact with. I’m sure when Jonathan Pageau emailed Jordan Peterson back in 2015 to say he was really impressed by what he heard on the radio, he never would have expected that in a couple of years, Peterson would be world-famous, and he himself would be featured prominently in a number of Peterson’s projects, often speaking to a Christian perspective that Peterson can’t provide himself and to the reality of God in the very essence of the created world. If you look at the comments to that video, it’s almost crazy how many comments have been left in the last couple of years by people who either said that that video started them on a path to belief in God or even led them to find the Church (particularly Orthodoxy). Each of us, when we allow ourselves to follow and be transformed by Christ, become the saints who radiate God’s Love to a fallen world, making it harder for someone like Peterson to level the indictment against us, and giving those struggling with faith a hand.

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